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The Shake To Fusion Transition Guide


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#31 shaily

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 11:07 AM

mrrafs, on May 2 2006, 04:01 AM, said:

Whats  shake equivilent to a subtractive merge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

premultiply on.


force_redo, on May 2 2006, 05:05 AM, said:

fgRGB + (1-bgA)*bgRGB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if the foreground is RGB and alpha comes as another layer then
composite(over) = (matte x foreground)+((1-matte)x background)

if the foreground image is RGBA(premultiplied) then:
composite(over) = foreground+((1-foregroundAlpha)x background)

if there is no matte then
composite(over)=foreground+background which is a simple add

force_redo, on May 2 2006, 05:05 AM, said:

Furthermore, I think the "subtractive method is the same for unpremult'd FGs

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


indeed it is
additive for premultiplied=subtractive for unpremultiplied

u can check that by adding a channelbolean in between your merge and foreground set to operation=multiply and the others set to alpha bg/fg.


mrrafs, on May 2 2006, 03:50 AM, said:

-also why do it the shake way in fusion, when it  makes for a longer render?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


i totally agree
almost all color tools have a pre-devide/post-multiply check box ,thats not true for shake
and i have never felt a need for a seperate mmult or mdiv in fusion

shake is an excellent tool to work with and its got its own work flow and so is fusion and its workflow lets adapt to fusions workflow and not force shakes workflow in fusion especially when its not needed.

shaily.

#32 shaily

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:46 PM

it is incorrect to use color->color curves set to hls for AdjustHSV
hls(hue, saturation, luminance/lightness) and hsv(hue, saturation, value) are not the same.

RGrad
[===] Creator - Background (Gradient - Radial)
[C01] Needs to be limited by a mask
there is no need for any mask; set the start to( .5,.5) , set the first key(small triangle) on the gradient bar as r,g,b,a, = 1.0 and set the last key as rgba = 0.0

DepthKey
[???]
luma key channel set to depth just interface difference

SpillSupress
[!!!]
how bad is matte control spill tab

Addmix
[!!!]
add ccv set to affect alpha only after both fg and bg ;set merge to over

ISubA
[!!!]
if that reads absolute value(ISub) then channelboolean set to operation difference should be fine

KeyMix
[!!!]
channel boolean (kindly explain me why not)

Shear
[!!!]
restrict the four corners of a cornerpin via expression and good to go [or] use the custom tool

Fit
[!!!]
transform -> letterbox

DisplaceX
[!!!]
why not displace

Bytes
[!!!]
miscellaneous->Change Depth

Field
[???]
miscellaneous-> strip field1/2

Tile
[W01] SecondMan has made a macro for this you can download below
dosent seem to be doing exactly what tile in shake is doing try

Histogram
[!!!]
[C01] Fusion can display histograms in the viewer
also color->color corrector histogram

its late now macros perhaps next time!

shaily.

#33 force_redo

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 05:57 PM

shaily, on May 3 2006, 06:46 PM, said:

it is incorrect to use color->color curves set to hls for AdjustHSV
hls(hue, saturation, luminance/lightness) and hsv(hue, saturation, value) are not the same.
you're right. Must be a typo. Where do you find this? It says "Color - Color Corrector (Hue/Saturation/Gain)" under AdjustHSV. Gain is value, is it not?

Quote

RGrad
DepthKey
SpillSupress
Addmix
ISubA
Shear
Bytes
Field
thanks a lot. Added these.

Quote

KeyMix
[!!!]
channel boolean (kindly explain me why not)
Sorry, just don't understand how. Please elaborate.
ETA: Ugh! Understood. Sometimes I just miss out the obvious. ;)

Quote

Fit
[!!!]
transform -> letterbox
Not quite. Added it with a comment as a workaround, though.

Quote

DisplaceX
[!!!]
why not displace
displace equals Shake's IDisplace. DisplaceX takes displacement expressions.

Quote

Tile
[W01] SecondMan has made a macro for this you can download below
dosent seem to be doing exactly what tile in shake is doing try
Does it not?

Quote

its late now macros perhaps next time!
thanks again. Much appreciated.

FR

#34 force_redo

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:09 PM

shaily, on May 3 2006, 05:07 PM, said:

mrrafs, on May 2 2006, 03:50 AM, said:

-also why do it the shake way in fusion, when it  makes for a longer render?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



i totally agree
I'm not sure what's faster to render
1.) MDiv -> Lot's of cc's -> MMult
or
2.) Lots of cc's each performing a division and a multiplication individually.

I guess it depends on the render pipeline. Anyone?

Quote

almost all color tools have a pre-devide/post-multiply check box ,thats not true for shake
Correct. In fact none of the shake tools have this checkbox.

Quote

and i have never felt a need for a seperate mmult or mdiv in fusion
Well, two examples come to my mind:
1.) Log, unpremult'd cg renders (not very common, but had these, too)
2.) Renderman Arb-outs, not carrying their own alpha, e.g. as lighting passes need to be added to unpremult'd colour passes (very commen where I work)

Quote

shake is an excellent tool to work with and its got its own work flow and so is fusion and its workflow lets adapt to fusions workflow and not force shakes workflow in fusion especially when its not needed.
I agree completely. But it makes a very easy transition for me...
(And sometimes you just stumble across functionlity you miss and can improve on it)

FR

#35 force_redo

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:23 PM

Daniel Koch, on May 2 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

[Improved Macros]
Great! A big "thank you" to you, too.
I didn't have the time to test them yet (damn day job!), but I added them anyways.

I should think about adding a credit list to the OP...

FR

#36 mrrafs

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 06:20 PM

Started learning shake this week ( :mf_pain: ), here are my contributions:

MDiv & MMult:
Channel Bolleans :multiply or divide (as Daniel Koch has noted earlier)
(OT: why is there no Mult/div combine op in the matte control Eyeon?)

MMult:
Matte Control: tick post multiply image
BitMatte Mask on any node: tick multiply by mask

SwitchMatte
Matte Control: Combine op copy (tick post multiply if mult needed)
Channel boolean: Copy operation, Alpha FG To Alpha & do nothing to RGB - for a multiplied result multiplied operation Alpha FG To RGBA

Cache
Mode: Force cache (memory only)
Mode: Cache to disk

PixelAnalyzer:
Krokodove plugin: Probe

Multilayer
Bitmate masks layered in any node (but only masks not RGB)

Quote

KeyMix
[!!!]
channel boolean (kindly explain me why not)
Key mix as far as I know is a Over with a seperate input for the matte - not possible with a single boolean. So Fusion option is a Merge with the alpha piped in via a bit matte mask, this looks as if it does the same thing. If keymix is being used to mix mattes rather than composite, the better option in fusion would be Matte Control:MergeOver(or under) op

--
Rafs
www.miafx.com
p.s. have wiki to archive this thread with simple file manager for macros..

#37 ChadCapeland

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 11:59 AM

force_redo, on Apr 17 2006, 08:34 PM, said:

IBlur
[!!!]
[C01] There is a workaround using  Deep Pixel - Depth Blur, but it seems to react differently IMO

ISharpen
[!!!]

DepthBlur is superior to both. In Shake, the IBlur is actually a macro made from depthslices and blurs. It only uses a few (I think 5) different levels of "Iness" for the effect and blends those together. The DepthBlur in Fusion is truely continuous and provides better results.

As for ISharpen, DepthBlur works in float, remember. Just feed negative values into the Blur Image input and you will sharpen. What's neat is that you can make an input with both positive and negative values and the DepthBlur will be an IBlur on some pixels and an ISharpen on others.

- Chad

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#38 ChadCapeland

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 12:07 PM

[quote name='force_redo' date='May 3 2006, 05:57 PM']
[quote name='shaily' date='May 3 2006, 06:46 PM']it is incorrect to use color->color curves set to
[quote]DisplaceX
[!!!]
why not displace
[/quote]
displace equals Shake's IDisplace. DisplaceX takes displacement expressions.

[/quote]


Actually, KKD's Offset is equivalent to IDisplace. Displace only works in one direction. You can displace left or right, up or down. But you can't displace left, right, up, and down. It's a subtle difference, and I've complained about it already.

- Chad

#39 force_redo

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 08:53 AM

ChadCapeland, on May 5 2006, 05:59 PM, said:

DepthBlur is superior to both.  In Shake, the IBlur is actually a macro made from depthslices and blurs.  It only uses a few (I think 5) different levels of "Iness" for the effect and blends those together.  The DepthBlur in Fusion is truely continuous and provides better results.
You are right, IBlur is a macro, but a rather effective one. It defaults to 5 Levels indeed, but you can choose the number of levels.
BTW: Is it possible in Fusion to have such recursive macros?

However, I'm having big troubles with the Depthblur in Fusion. See my attached super-simple example: If you choose box or soften as filters you get super-heavy artifacts, if you choose super-soften, it simply breaks unless you make your input float in which case you end up with not-so-heavy, but still visible artifacts.
And, on top of all that, DepthBlur is quite slow due to its continuous nature, I guess.

FR

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#40 force_redo

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:00 AM

ChadCapeland, on May 5 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Actually, KKD's Offset is equivalent to IDisplace.  Displace only works in one direction.  You can displace left or right, up or down.  But you can't displace left, right, up, and down.  It's a subtle difference, and I've complained about it already.
Fusion's Displace works in two directions, too. You just have to make your input float. A -1 in the control image will displace in the opposite direction. Hence it is exactly the same as Shake's IDisplace.

The only difference I believe it has is that the Shake one does a bit of oversampling, if I remember correctly. But I might be wrong...

FR

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#41 ChadCapeland

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 08:42 AM

Right you are, I could have sworn I had tried that in the past.

- Chad

#42 ChadCapeland

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 08:45 AM

force_redo, on May 6 2006, 08:53 AM, said:

However, I'm having big troubles with the Depthblur in Fusion. See my attached super-simple example: If you choose box or soften as filters you get super-heavy artifacts, if you choose super-soften, it simply breaks unless you make your input float in which case you end up with not-so-heavy, but still visible artifacts.
And, on top of all that, DepthBlur is quite slow due to its continuous nature, I guess.

FR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You're right. Having some other modes would be good. Bartett, Gaussian, as well as the Defocus method would be nice.

- Chad

#43 shaily

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:32 AM

View Postforce_redo, on May 3 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

shaily, on May 3 2006, 06:46 PM, said:

it is incorrect to use color->color curves set to hls for AdjustHSV
hls(hue, saturation, luminance/lightness) and hsv(hue, saturation, value) are not the same.
you're right. Must be a typo. Where do you find this? It says "Color - Color Corrector (Hue/Saturation/Gain)" under AdjustHSV. Gain is value, is it not?
FR

my appologies i wasnt patient :mf_w00t2: enough to read carefully,i read "colorcurves" instead of "color corrector". And i didnt check before hitting reply


View Postforce_redo, on May 3 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

Quote

Fit

[W01] SecondMan has made a macro for this you can download below
dosent seem to be doing exactly what tile in shake is doing try
Does it not?
ill be posting some macros by tomorrow or day after and u shall know how!


View Postmrrafs, on May 4 2006, 06:20 PM, said:

Quote

KeyMix
[!!!]
channel boolean (kindly explain me why not)
Key mix as far as I know is a Over with a seperate input for the matte - not possible with a single boolean. So Fusion option is a Merge with the alpha piped in via a bit matte mask, this looks as if it does the same thing. If keymix is being used to mix mattes rather than composite, the better option in fusion would be Matte Control:MergeOver(or under) op
keymix is not an over with a seperate input for matte (if you are curious to know why i can demonstrate)
its just doing what a bitmap mask in fusion does,i suggested bol because of its better functionality in this respect and besides merge and bol u can also use dissolve tool.
mattecontrol:merge over/under is not a mix its a diffrent math function ;use copy and percentage the mix using blend ,alternatively the dissolve tool and the bg/fg slider or bol with blend.



View Postforce_redo, on May 6 2006, 08:53 AM, said:

BTW: Is it possible in Fusion to have such recursive macros?
It is! and i will try to do one, but it is likely to be noticeably slow.



shaily.

#44 mrrafs

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 06:16 AM

View Postshaily, on May 19 2006, 10:32 AM, said:

keymix is not an over with a seperate input for matte (if you are curious to know why i can demonstrate)
its just doing what a bitmap mask in fusion does,i suggested bol because of its better functionality in this respect and besides merge and bol u can also use dissolve tool.
mattecontrol:merge over/under is not a mix its a diffrent math function ;use copy and percentage the mix using blend ,alternatively the dissolve tool and the bg/fg slider or bol with blend.

-How do you mimic Fusions 'mattecontrol(merge over)' node in shake, with the over tool with mask input or keymix?

-Why is a keymix not an over with a seperate input for a matte (with preMult ticked -forgot to mention) - it seems to be the same as a merge with bitmatt, or a subtractive merge with bol combined alpha?

I assume that all the other nodes I commented on are correct as there is no other feedback - could force_redo pls update - and I'll throw this all up on a VFX-Wiki after (www.miafx.com)

thanks
--
Rafal

#45 SalaTar

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 06:30 PM

Who has this thread wrapped up into one page with fixes and edits?

Id like to put it as a sticky at vfxtalks forum for fusion




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